This article has been edited for spelling and typographic errors.
| From – Sun May 12 17:53:01 1996 Path: news.intersurf.net!usenet From: Heinrich Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,alt.archaeology Subject: Re: Earth Crust Shift – Revisited Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:41:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Earth Crust Shift – Revisited |
Dan Doner, (dan@lance.colostate.edu) on March 20, 1996 wrote:
>Paul J. Gans (gans@scholar.chem.nyu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4ikn8o$393k@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, >:dan@lance.colostate.edu wrote:
>: >Paul, >: >
>: >I’m new to this discussion, but I have been reading a fair
>: >amount dealing with the ECM theories. Your statement
>:>implies some rather interesting calculations and associated
>:>assumptions. Would you mind posting these?
> >: I don’t have any, really. My statement, I think, stands
>:on its own.
> >I’m sorry, I must disagree (about your comments standing on
>their own). There is just too much about any possible ECD
>that geologists just cant know, including rate. What if it takes
>100 years, or 1000 years?
If a person takes the time and trouble to collect data and do the research instead of dismissing everything as being impossible, there is an amazing amount of data can be collected and used to test whether earth crustal displacement (ECD) actually occurs and at what rates. For example, detailed analysis of lake deposits dated by either varves, radiocarbon dating or combination of the both can give a person detail paleomagnetic data that will clearly demonstrate whether, when, and at what rates it occurred. Whether it takes a 100 or 1,000 years, paleomagnetic data from lake and deep sea cores and volcanic deposits would give a definitive record of any ECD that has occurred during the Late Quaternary.
>How is it that a 90′ fruit tree is preserved in Siberia, along
>with a sabertooth tiger?
The 90 ft fruit tree is nothing more than creationist folklore created by distorted reporting of a 20 foot alder tree buried 70 feet deep in Pleistocene deposits and a spelling error in the species name.. The details of this are given in a FAQ titled “Creationist Tall Tales!” by E. T. Babinski at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part3.html
According to Babinski, the sources of this story are Grady (1985) and Dillow (1981, p. 316), both of which are creationist tracts. As the FAQ indicates, the source references that they both cite, which are Digby (1926) and Tolmachoff (1929), clearly state that the tree was only 15 to 20 feet tall including its roots and is an alder tree, Alnus fruticosa. It is certainly not a plum tree. This species of alder is currently found growing in northwestern Siberia. Furthermore, the alder was found lying horizontal relative to the strata.
The sabertooth tiger fossils consisted of a single bone. That a single sabertooth tiger bone was found in the same “frozen sandy clay” as the alder lacks any significance. Saber-tooth tigers could have either adapted to the cold climate of the New Siberian Islands or have been following the summer migration of large animals when the island was connected to the mainland as a result of low sea level.
For more information, see:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part3.html
>Why are the core samples from the seabed around
>Antarctica suggestive of recent soil erosion on the
>continent?
This refers to Exhibit 7 of Hancock (1995) [Fingerprints of the Gods], and the Ross Sea cores of Hapgood (1979). The problem is that the interpretation of recent soil erosion is based solely upon the presence of layers composed of well-sorted, fine-grained sediments within the cores without other supporting evidence, e.g. paleontological, palynological, clay-mineral data. Since similar well-sorted, fine-grained sediments can accumulate in variety of environments, including glacial and glacio-marine settings, and are currently accumulating in the modern Ross Sea in front of the modern Ross Ice Shelf (Anderson et al. 1984), the interpretations of Hancock (1995) and Hapgood (1979) that claim that these deposits suggest recent soil erosion on Antarctica are without any basis in fact.
>Maybe the ice core samples that suggest a 200k year history
>of ice on the continent only suggest that “some” of the ice
>has always been there.
There is other evidence that corroborates the ice core data. It includes 8 million-year old glacial ice in the dry valleys (Sugden et al. 1995), 15 million-year old *unweathered* year old volcanic ash (Marchant 1966), palynological studies from the southern tip of South America (Heusser 1989), and many more studies (Denton et al. 1991; van der Wateren and Hindmarsh 1995).
>It is, after all, the highest continent on the planet,
>with an average elevation of over 6k feet.
Most of this elevation is the result of a 5,000 to 10,000 foot thick ice cap. Some ice cores were taken in areas where the subglacial bedrock surface is either close to and, even, below sea level. Thus, elevation and mountain glaciation cannot be used to explain the local persistence of the ice in these areas.
>And finally, why in the world are there maps of Antarctica
>(regardless of their depiction of ice on the shores) that use a
>complex spherical projection and seem to be project from Giza?
The primary maps that have been used as evidence of a ice-free Antarctica by Hancock (1995), Hapgood (1970, 1979), and others have been the Buache, Orontius Finaeus, and Piri Reis maps. As I have stated in another post:
1. The Buache map shows little, if any, resemblance to the subglacial topography and any hypothetical ice-free topography of Antarctica. The latter differs from the former because of 50 to 500 meters of uplift due isostatic rebound if the ice was to be removed. The Buache map lacks any resemblance to an ice-free Antarctica and, thus, fails to be evidence for it.”
……..line omitted…..
2. Hapgood’s interpretation of the Orontius Finaeus map is full of circular reasoning, force fitting, and rubber-sheeting of the map to fit his interpretations. Even the partially glaciated interpretation is full of contradictions and gross errors that Hapgood can only explain away as being the result of the primary source map being compiled from many other source maps made of different parts of Antarctica at different times thousands of years apart. As best, it is poorly drawn map of a fully glaciated Antarctica to which someone has added imaginary stream valleys (Even coastlines that had to made of glacier ice have the river valleys drawn on them.) I will explain all of this in a post that I am working on. (It possibly represents the work of some unknown, early Portuguese explorer.)
3. The identification of Antarctica on the Piri Reis map is made from a single 1948 seismic section. This is very shaky evidence to use for such a determination.
Thus, none of these three maps show any evidence of having been made of an ice-free or even partially ice-free Antarctica as you and others claim. I have prepared a post concerning the Buache map and am working on posts concerning the other maps.
>Maybe ECD’s don’t happen, but something has certainly happened
>in the past, and an outright dismissal of a theory without
>properly addressing it will never help shed light on any
>potentially new theories.
Excluding the myths about an advanced civilization lying buried beneath Antarctica, something did happen. The climate changed between 16,000 and 10,000 BP, the Antarctic ice cap melted slightly, and sea level rose. What happened in Antarctica is approximately the opposite of what the ECD model claimed happened in Antarctica. In terms of the crust of the Earth, plate tectonics is what is happening.
References
Anderson, John B., Brake, C. F., and Myers, N. C., 1984, Sedimentation on the Ross Sea Continental Shelf, Antarctica. Marine Geology. vol. 57, pp. 295-333.
Denton, G. H., Prentice, M. L., and Burkle, L. H., 1991, Cainozoic history of the Antarctic ice sheet. in R. T. Tingey (ed.), pp. 366-433, The Geology of Antarctica. Clarendon Press, Oxford.
Dillow, J., 1981, The Waters Above. Chicago: Moody Press.
Digby, B., 1926, The Mammoth and Mammoth Hunting in North-East Siberia. London: H.F. & G. Witherby
Grady, L, 1985, The mystery of the frozen giants. Bible-Science News, vol .23, no. 4, pp. 1-8. [April 1985].
Hancock, G., 1995, Fingerprints of the Gods, Evidence of Earth’s Lost Civilizations, Crown Publishers.
Hapgood, C. H., 1970, The Path of the Pole, Chilton Book Company, Philadelphia.
Hapgood, C. H., 1979, Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, 2nd Edition, E. P. Dutton, New York.
Heusser, C. J., 1989, Climate and chronology of Antarctica and adjacent South America over the past 30,000 years. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, vol. 76, no. 1/2, pp. 31-37.
Marchant, D. R., Denton, G. H., Swisher, C. C., and Potter, N., 1996, Late Cenozoic Antarctic paleoclimate reconstructed from volcanic ashes in the Dry Valleys region of southern Victoria Land. Geological Society of America Bulletin, vol. 108, no. 2, pp. 181-194.
Sugden, D. E., Marchant, D. R., and others, 1995, Preservation of Miocene glacial ice in East Antarctica. Nature. vol. 376, no, 6539, pp. 412-414.
Tolmachoff, I. P., 1929, The Carcasses of the Mammoth and Rhinoceros Found in the Frozen Ground of Siberia. Transactions of the American Philosophical Society Held at Philadelphia For Promoting Useful Knowledge, New Series, vol. 23, Part 1, pp. 1-76.
van der Wateren, D., and Hindmarsh, R., 1995, Stabilists strike again. Nature. vol. 376, no. 6539, pp. 389-391.
Signature of this post omitted.
Version 4.0
Dec 18, 2001
Copyright (c) 1996-2002 Paul V. Heinrich All rights reserved.
